Listened to this lecture on Friday- just now getting to posting the blog about it. Its just as jam packed as the Intro version. Lots of stuff. Today Nash offers an answer to The Problem of Evil. It's to the point- so not completely sufficient. But- its a start. Obviously as people come up with more branches of argument for this, we'll have to come up with more defense. As of now though, Nash does a good job of coverign the basics. (Again, I'm going to try and put my thoughts in parentheses. So- if you see something funky and its outside the parentheses- It's probly Nash).
Important things that Nash mentions early in the lecture:
There are some things God cannot do, because they contradict with
his character.
So, knowing that God is all powerful, does the term "Divine
Omnipotence" mean God can do anything? No.
For example:
An important question: What if we don't know God's plan, and the
evil he allows takes the place of a greater evil? Or what if preventing that
evil leads to a lesser good? (Messes with his plan).
Christian Basic Assumption About Evil
God created a world with evil, and has a good reason for doing so.
(Who are we, tiny fragile beings, to question the motives of the Creator of the
Universe? There's a big difference between understanding the finer details and
thinking that as humans we're "owed" any sort answers from God. He
gives us information and understanding because he loves us, not because we
deserve it.)
So, when bad things happen, instead of asking "How could God
have let that happen?", we can say, "What if God's got a good reason
for this, and I just don't get it?" See the difference? The second
opens a floodgate of opportunity. Just because we don't hold the secrets of the
universe doesn't mean there isn't a reason, just that we don't have it.
Not all bad things happen without a reason. Revelation- the
end of the world- is revealed in scripture. God's warning us about it in advance (So we can be prepared).
Another important premise- Evil is not eternal. There was a point
when evil had not entered existence yet. (Nash didn't say anything
about the future of evil. I'm curious about his views on that. If anyone has
something to add to this bit- feel free).
HOW????
Question: How can God and Evil exist simultaneously??
Well.... here are some possibilities.
1. Augustine-- major Christian philosopher.
Something Nash takes the time to point out here that I think is
important as well: (Prepare for a bit of a rant...)We choose this path every
day that we sin (Which'd be every day). We're humans. We screw up- think we're
big/tough, and upset the order of things. Basically- we choose evil. We choose
the path Satan took hundreds of millions of years ago. That's why we
deserve such a harsh punishment- because we're messing with the God of the
universe. Thank the Lord (yes, pun intended) for forgiveness. Because, pardon
my french, without forgiveness- we'd be screwed (We'd be in Hell). Harsh? Yes.
True? Yes. BUT- That's why this is so important. Don't forget
that when you fight to defend the logic of the gospel, someone's soul is
possibly at stake.
Enough ranting.
Back to Augustine. The one hole in his argument is this: Where did
Satan get the idea to mess up the order in the first place?? Well, just like
Nash said before- we're human, and cannot possibly explain every bunny trail
question that pops up. This is one of those that he chooses to leave
unanswered. (If you've got an answer, feel free to comment).
2. God permits evil to prevent a greater evil, or to cause a
greater good.
Final Considerations
1. The burden of proof is on the non-believer.
Something ironic about this argument (if, and only if, it's being
argued by a Naturalist):
Huge Question that Nash poses at this point in the lecture:
Are there worse things than dying?
His overall answer: absolutely.
1. Romans 8:28 - And we
know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,
who have been called according to his purpose.
2. Romans 8:18
Nothing is worse that being without God (Which
essentially is hell). That includes death. (Toby Mac song- What good is it to
gain the whole world and lose your soul? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8du_xWWt8E )
Sooo, ya. Like I said- a lot of stuff. Good stuff
though. Next time'll be on world views. Stick around, more interesting
apologetic stuff to come. :)
The Burden of Proof is a weird concept. I'm not sure I agree with whom the burden of proof lies. I think each side of an argument would expect that the other person would be the one who needs to bring the evidence in.
ReplyDeleteEvery arguer that I've heard claims that the burden of proof lies with the other person. That leads me to think that the 'burden of proof' is an invalid idea.
Both sides need to present evidence for their side.
I think what Nash is saying here is that yes, both sides have to present a case, BUT- we don't have to prove without a doubt, 100% that a certain reason is the "truth" that contradicts this statement. In courtroom lingo- the prosecution has brought a charge against us- that God and evil cannot co-exist. Our job as the defense isn't to prove that the prosecution is 100% wrong, just to provide reasonable doubt. The burden of proof lies with the non-believer, because they're the ones who need to show that their case is "truth". All we have to do is make a case for a possibility that they're wrong- because then it can't be "truth". Both sides have to present evidence, and have logic to back up their claims. But- the roles of each side are different. I agree though that most people claim that the other side has the burden of proof. Having the burden of proof stinks, and makes making a case a lot harder, so trying to place the burden on the other side is defiantly an advantage. And, sometimes it's a murky grey area as to who really has it. In this case I believe that it's clear, but depending on how you look at it, I suppose it can be interpreted different ways.
ReplyDeletePart of this depends upon how one words the question:
ReplyDeleteIf the question is -- An omnipotent, good God cannot coexist with evil -- then all one must do is provide one evidence to the contrary. Using the word 'cannot' requires only a single evidence to the contrary in order to be broken.
If the question changes to -- An omnipotent, good God who coexists with evil, must either not be omnipotent, or must not be entirely good -- then this requires more than a single evidence to the contrary to break.
Who would the burden of proof be cast upon in each circumstance? In the first question, the burden of proof would be to disprove the statement, so it would rely upon the person who does believe they can coexist. The other person is simply relying upon the law of non-contradiction.
In the second question, the burden of proof is difficult to identify. There is no one statement that can be disproven easily. Instead, one might show that the two can coexist, or that either scenario (not a good god, or not omnipotent) is not necessarily the case. The burden of proof would rely upon the person making the claim.
Hmm. Interesting thought. I'd never thought about wording, and what it might mean for the burden of proof. Then again, in both cases, wouldn't the thing that needs "proving" stay the same? (Truly asking, not meant to be rhetorical). In the first instance, if you bring evidence to suggest that God (including all of his characteristics- omnipotence, goodness, etc.) can co-exist with evil, then you disprove the "cant" statement. In the second instance, if you were to bring evidence to support the same sort of thing- God (In his full omnipotence and goodness) can co-exist with evil- you essentially do the same thing.
ReplyDeleteSomething I sort of disagree with- and I may be wrong here- the burden of proof in the first case seems to lie with the "cant" person. If you define Burden of Proof as 'Building the case', then I believe it would be the job of the person saying something can't be, to explain why they disagree with the affirmative statement. The other person would still have a 'burden' to prove things, but it would be to poke holes to discredit the other person's argument. At least, that's how I would interpret it.
As for the second scenario- I still think the burden stays the same. Because the main point stays the same, at least in essence, the burden of proof would still be on the person with the "can't" statement.
Here's where I asked myself, "Well, Why?"
The way I guess I'm interpreting it is based on assumption of innocence until proven guilty. If you were to take that away- then Burden of proof is completely arbitrary, and your point would be completely valid. No one would know who has the 'obligation' if you will, to do the 'building' of a case, or 'destroying' of a case. If you were to assume the other way- that the Law of Non-contradiction was correct until someone could prove God's side, then yes, the burden of proof would be flip flopped. And I suppose that everyone has different world views, and could interpret the 'assumption' of this situation differently. Different questions, and their wording can insinuate different things, and just because this one was easily converted into a positive/negative situation- doesn't mean that all questions can be. I can totally see where a question could be morphed into something not quite as simple as that, and then the burden of proof would be completely lost. Maybe in those situations it's a hodgepodge of both people doing the building and breaking down.
So, I suppose really that it all comes down to whether a person thinks that the affirmative or the negative have the burden, and where the assumption goes. The wording of the question also has something to do with it. Now my brain's sort of going in circles. As to which "assumption" is right, I have no clue. I just know that I happened to approach this situation with the neg burden.
You have an excellent and a really introspective post there!
ReplyDeleteEven when I was writing the 3rd comment, My mind was going around in circles trying to figure out who gets the burden. I can't say that I have any answers to any of the questions, but I feel that some of these questions raised are simply not as clear cut as some might make them out to be.